Debating about whether we should be debating folk music

Ewan MacColl

By Jim Carroll | The Ballad Tree: Traditional Folk Ballads and Songs

I put this up earlier on a thread on this debating and listening to folk music forum, debating about whether we should be debating folk music (you work it out – I can’t)

Rather than it get lost in the ever descending debates, I thought it might be debated here as it affects my decision whether to go on debating Ewan MacColl and the Critics group ( a debatable question for some) Somebody suggested that he will stop attacking MacColl if I will stop debating his work (a debatable proposal, if ever there was one) 😈

Ewan McColl Bert Lloyd and Cecil Sharp were the most industrious and important benefactors, folk song has ever had It has always been nigh on impossible to discus MaColl’s work on singing because of attacks on his character.

As you say, “the real point, people need to talk about the songs as songs, traditions as traditions, and techniques as techniques.” MacColl and the Critics Group took that further than anybody on the folk scene has ever done – how can we possibly discuss if is that work is a no-go area ?

I’ve just experienced a somewhat unpleasant interval here because I criticised what I believe to be bad singing – my criticism was deleted – It was rationally laid out in detail and put in polite terms yet it was removed Today’s folk scene wants only praise for its stars – I learned that the hard way, that does not help either the songs we are here to promote nor those who have put in he work to preserve them

Since Dave Harker’s ‘Fakelore’, all Sharp’s work has been changed from England’s introduction to it’s folk culture to “the invention of Victorian Middle Class ladies and gentlemen on bicycles” – this by the academics who are now claiming that “the “Voice of the People” was really the work of bad poets scribbling songs in hurry, not only does this undermine working people as culture makers – it raises the question “Why the hell should we waste our time defending yesterday’s pop songs written by the fore-runners of today’s gutter press?

Recently A L Lloyd has been exhumed in order to prove he was a fake who sold us forged folk songs.

Pretty soon we will have no academic folk history just as Britain no longer has a folk scene worth talking about

The recent raise in membership shows that our problems lie within our own ranks – the potential is obvious and to me, the answer is just as obvious.

We need to discuss it critically and openly. If we don’t this site may as become an “all good fellows and fellowesses backslapping brigade.

Make up your mind time, I think. Discussion, even argument is the way we share ideas – it has been part of my education for as long as I have been on the folk scene; without it, I’d probably have become bored with listening to the same old same old songs and gone and joined my mates in Mathew Street paying homage to The Beatles. I’ve been around folk song for over sixty years now and I’m still learning – a permanent student, you might say.

Can I just add one more thing to this over-long ramble, In the 1970s Pat and I got involved in a rather disturbing discussion regarding the singing of two Traveler brothers – both had their family’s traditional songs, one sang them using a superb traditional style, the other preferred County and Western Americanese – the songs included The Outlandish Knight and The Grey Cock

As so-called ‘experts’ we were asked to judge – we declined,

The argument continued – while we watched – it got more and more heated till we began to think it was time to leave.

It suddenly stopped – arms were thrown around shoulders and pints were consumed amicably – I went home pissed – Pat was driving.

These were the non-literate “Nackers” who are regarded as violent and dishonest sub-humans not fit to live among ‘decent human beings like us”.

Makes you think, doesn’t it, it does me.

I shall go on discussing and arguing as long as I have puff – if not here, somewhere else.

https://ewanmaccoll.bandcamp.com/…/lang-johnny-more…

Folk’s man of mystery: is Cecil Sharp a folk hero or villain?

To some, Cecil Sharp is a folk hero, to others, an arch-manipulator. So, given a week to write a song suite about him, what would today’s folk stars come up with? Colin Irwin finds out

By Betsy Reed

It sounds like some hideous TV reality show dreamed up by Simon Cowell and Andrew Lloyd Webber during a night on the lash. Dump eight folk-music celebrities in a secluded house in Shropshire and give them six days to create from scratch a suite of songs to be performed in front of paying audiences in Shrewsbury and London and then recorded for a live album. Careers have been destroyed on less whimsical ideas.

The subject of their mission is Cecil Sharp, the great song collector whose work in the early years of the 20th century helped lay the foundations of the modern folk revival.

Visiting them on day three at their remote hideaway – a rambling farmhouse near Church Stretton – you anticipate plenty of carnage: frayed tempers, blood on the carpet, egos splattered on walls, creativity-devouring levels of tension in the air.

But no, instead, they are … dancing. Part of their brief is to incorporate Sharp’s collecting trips to the Appalachian mountains, and Leonard Podolak, an extrovert, shaggy-haired Canadian taking time out from his band the Duhks, is using this as an excuse to lighten the mood and teach the others some audience-rousing step-dance moves.

“It’s going pretty well,” says Steve Knightley, frontman with Show of Hands and unofficial father of the house. “We came in on Friday, had a Chinese takeaway, listened to a talk about Sharp, got drunk and started work.”

It sounds as if Knightley almost cracked it on that first night. “The women all went to bed and the rest of us sat in the kitchen strumming and talking, and in the space of that time Steve wrote three songs one after another,” says singer, writer and multi-instrumentalist Jim Moray in wonder. “He’d play a chord and off the top of his head sing something, anything, and say: ‘I’ll just record that on my phone.’ Some of the words are nonsense and don’t gel, but he goes back and develops it. I can’t do that. I can’t sit there free-associating nonsense, because I feel so self-conscious about it. But Steve has that confidence in his own ability to do that.”

Operating under the umbrella of the Shrewsbury folk festival, where the Cecil Sharp Project will be staged at the end of August, project director Neil Pearson’s choice of artists reflects personal taste as much as any scientific assessment of personalities. “I had a long list of about 40 artists who I thought could make it work. I approached 10 of them first of all, and the eight who said yes are the eight we have here.”

“I’m not getting involved in the creative process at all,” says Pearson, who masterminded a similar project to mark the bicentennial of Charles Darwin’s birth, two years ago. “The only thing I’ve said is that I’d like them to start and end with ensemble pieces. The rest is entirely up to them. I’m very confident the musicians we have will come up with something special.”

Considering the time strictures, they do all seem remarkably laidback, gathering in little clutches around the house. Fuelled by a constant flow of iced coffee, Leonard Podolak is a loud and relentless force of nature, carrying his laptop around to treat housemates to his favourite YouTube clips, banjo glued to his arm, shouting, “I’m a Cheatham County chitlin-cooking lover …” at the top of his voice to anyone within earshot. Chitlins are a dish made from pig’s intestines, and he’s trying out a song that confronts the dietary limitations encountered by the vegetarian Sharp on his journey into the Appalachians.

In the kitchen, meanwhile, some more genteel interaction involves Jackie Oates and Kathryn Roberts practising glorious harmonies on Seeds of Love, the first traditional song collected by Sharp. He heard it sung by a gardener, John England, while taking tea with his friend, the Rev Charles Marson in Hambridge, Somerset in 1903. In another room, Moray fleshes out a guitar arrangement as Knightley toys with darker images of Sharp on his deathbed, haunted by the ghosts of the singers from whom he’s collected music demanding the return of their songs.

The subject of Cecil Sharp has long divided folk-song scholars. The popular image is of a charming eccentric cycling around Somerset knocking on people’s doors persuading old ladies to sing him their lovely old songs so he could save them from extinction, and preserve them through his books and lectures to provide a formidable harvest for future generations to enjoy and plunder. The conflicting modernist view is of a controlling manipulator who presented a false idyll of rural England by excluding anything that didn’t fit his agenda, moulding himself as an untouchable icon of the folk-song movement in the process.

Either way it’s a compelling story. At a time when other folk song collectors such as George Butterworth were dying in the trenches during the first world war, Sharp was on a mission in the US, battling ill-health exacerbated by the oppressive climate as he obsessively attempted to unravel the heart of the old world in the purity of folk songs he found in the new. “It is strenuous work,” he wrote. “There are no roads in our sense of the word … I go about in a blue shirt, a pair of flannel trousers with a belt, a Panama hat and an umbrella. The heat is very trying …”

And that’s about as much as he reveals about himself, frustrating the songwriter in Knightley, who considers Sharp a far tougher nut to crack than Charles Darwin. “With Darwin you had world-changing views, with all the reaction to that from the religious side, plus the geography, the travel, the exotic flora and fauna … and no music to distract you. With Sharp there’s this great body of work, and nothing about the man.”

This may in no small part be due to Maud Karpeles, Sharp’s faithful assistant on those epic expeditions into the Appalachians, who fiercely protected his legacy following his death in 1924, writing an anodyne biography that depicted him as a saint. “What we all really want to know is: did Cecil shag Maud?’ says Knightley to nervous hilarity in the house, with enough secretive giggling over hastily written lyrics and nascent choruses to suggest such lascivious suggestions are indeed being considered as an irreverent song topic.

“Sharp was definitely all about the work,” says Moray. “His diaries are informative, but they just say things like ‘2pm: dinner with Miss Hamer. 6pm: theatre.’ If he had ulterior motives – whether political or whatever – they weren’t mentioned or documented. Most people have arrived at this idea of him being a controlling, sanitising man, but I don’t think it was malicious or sinister. I just think he was very driven. I don’t believe he was rewriting history the way some people imagine.”

Hailing from Canton, Mississippi, Caroline Herring knows all about Sharp’s US collecting trips. “The ballads I’ve heard since childhood, like Fair and Tender Ladies, Barbara Allen, Knoxville Girl, make up the standard bluegrass tunes I first played. I jumped at the chance to come here. A folk music career in the US is not always showy and sexy, so it was a dream to come over here and work with these musicians. I go online at night and read about how they’re all stars and come back down and have pancakes with them in the morning.”

It was Herring who picked up on the fact that at a time when 13% of the population in the Appalachians was black, Sharp wilfully ignored them. He collected only two songs from black singers, one of them being Barbara Allen, learned from “Aunt” Maria Tomes, an 85-year-old former slave he found smoking a pipe in a log cabin in Nellysford, Virginia in 1918. Suitably inspired by this footnote, Herring and Knightley start working up a vehement blues telling Aunt Maria’s story.

Exhausted, they all gradually drift off to bed, half-written songs and scraps of tunes spinning round their heads. Yet deep into the early hours, the group’s two main mischief makers, Podolak and Cutting, are still swapping tunes, jokes and video clips before deciding to make a pancake mix for breakfast. When he surfaces a couple of hours later next morning, Podolak says he still couldn’t sleep. “When I went to bed I wrote this brilliant three-part tune entirely in my head, but I was too tired to get up and now I can’t remember any of it. I wish I had one of those frickin’ iPhones.”

You wonder if Cecil Sharp might have thought the same.

Source: Folk’s man of mystery: is Cecil Sharp a folk hero or villain? | Folk music | The Guardian

Give Us a Tune: “Lord Douglas”

Lord Douglas, perhaps the most successful and well-known of his many adaptations of Child Ballads and a firm favourite of guitarists up and down the land. The track won Moray yet another BBC Radio 2 Folk Award – for Best Traditional Track – in 2013. This new version has the welcome addition of stunning backing vocals from multi-instrumentalist and academic Angeline Morrison

Folk Radio UK

Traditional Lyrics:

Awake, awake, arise, you seven sleepers,
So long before the day,
For Lord Douglas comes all in your lady’s chamber
To steal his love away.

Continue reading

Give Us a Tune: “Pavanne”

Performed by June Tabor

From June Tabor’s “Against the Streams” 1994

Performed by Dave Swarbrick with vocals by Simon Nicol

From Dave Swarbrick & Simon Nicol “When We Were Young”

Performed by Richard and Linda Thompson

“Pavanne” by Richard Thompson

Pavanne, cold steel woman Pavanne
How do you love a woman
With eyes cold as the barrel of her gun
Who’s never missed her mark on anyone
Pavanne, Pavanne, Pavanne

Casino doors swing open, the rich men raise their eyes
They say who is this beauty as elegant as ice
And later there’s an accident, another charge d’affair
Is lying in a pool of blood, no witness anywhere
And they say she was a hundred miles away
The hotel porter saw her climb the stairs
And the maid with trembling hands knows what to say
When the judge says “Are your sure,” “I’m sure” she swears

Pavanne, cold steel woman Pavanne
How do you love a woman
With eyes cold as the barrel of her gun
Who’s never missed her mark on anyone
Pavanne, Pavanne, Pavanne

At the presidential palace a thousand people saw
His excellency leave his car and never make the door
The blood flows from his fingers as he clutches at the stain
He staggers like a drunken man, lies twisted in the rain
And they say she grew up well provided for
Her mother used to keep her boys for sure
And father’s close attentions led to talk
She learned to stab her food with a silver fork

Pavanne, cold steel woman Pavanne

And they say she didn’t do it for the money
And they say she didn’t do it for a man
They say that she did it for the pleasure
The pleasure of the moment

Pavanne, cold steel woman Pavanne
How do you stop this woman
When everyone is moving in a trance
Like prisoners of some slow, courtly dance
Pavanne, Pavanne, Pavanne
Pavanne, Pavanne, Pavanne

Give us a tune: “The Leaving of Liverpool”

“If a man’s a sailor he will get along but if not then he’s sure in hell.”

Fare Thee Well, My Own True Love

The Leaving of Liverpool is a traditional folk song which tells the story of a sailor who must leave his town and his true love behind while he goes off to earn his living on a long voyage at sea.

From the moment he leaves his only concern is to return to her as soon as possible.

Bob Dylan borrowed heavily from The Leaving of Liverpool when he wrote one of his first songs, called simply, Farewell.

The song is also often referred to as Fare Thee Well, My Own True Love, which is the first line of the chorus.

Like many folk songs, The Leaving of Liverpool has developed several versions and variations since it was first discovered and published in the late 19th century.

The first known reference to the song came from an American seaman called Richard Maitland. He heard it being sung on a ship called the General Knox in 1885. Maitland later recalled: “I was on deck one night when I heard a Liverpool man singing it …yes sir, that song hit the spot.”

Leaving of Liverpool travelled the world

The song went on to hit the spot with listeners all across the world.

It became more widely known after Maitland passed the song on to William Main Doerflinger, a folk music enthusiast from New York who specialised in collecting sea songs and shanties. Doerflinger published The Leaving of Liverpool in his book, Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman.

The song was quickly picked up by a wider range of singers and soon, versions started to appear on both sides of the Atlantic.

Fare you well the Prince’s Landing Stage

The Doerflinger version begins with the line, Fare you well the Prince’s landing stage, and this is still the most popular opening to the song today.

However, many versions ignore this verse and get straight to the love element with the line, Farewell to you my own true love. While this line works very well, it is a later addition and is not found in the original version.

The Prince’s landing stage was the name of the platform used by people embarking on ships in Liverpool, often because they were emigrating.

Many of those emigrants had come across from Ireland to board ships sailing to America. Liverpool was a major port in the 19th century and was able to offer more US destinations than were available at many Irish ports.

Trains ran all the way to the platform to make embarkation quicker and easier.

Song captures the hardship of the sailor’s life

The song gives a brief glimpse of the hardship sailors and their families had to endure by long separation.

Journeys were long in those days and perilous, especially when passing “stormy Cape Horn”. Sailors could be away from home for several months, even years. The life was hard and the treatment could often be harsh.

The only thing that kept many sailors going was the thought of returning to the lovers they left behind.

They say she’s a floating in hell

The reference in The Leaving of Liverpool to the Davy Crockett ship with Burgess as its captain gives some insight into the hardship endured by sailors.

The ship is referred to as a floating hell. Life would be particularly tough for unemployed young who were forced to go to sea because they had no chance of finding jobs at home on land.

Not all of them were suited to a life at sea, which added to the hardship. As the song lyric suggests in reference to life on board Burgess’s ship: “If a man’s a sailor he will get along but if not then he’s sure in hell.”

Leaving of Liverpool now a folk standard

The Leaving of Liverpool has now become a standard on the folk circuit. It’s been covered by numerous top performers including  The Dubliners and The Clancys and Tommy Makem. It was also hit in the UK in the 1960s for the ballad group The Spinners.

More recently it has been recorded a new generation of performers including Gaelic Storm, The Pogues and The Young Dubliners | Source | Lyrics and Chords


The Old Songs Podcast explores the stories behind traditional songs – where they came from, who sang them, how they’ve changed and where they’re going. [ Produced by https://tradfolk.co/ ]